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Hydrogen fuel-cell cars look to overtake electric autos

CNN -- As electric cars try to forge more than just a niche in the market, the auto industry is already looking to another form of clean technology that could overtake today's battery-powered vehicles.

Commitments by automobile manufactures to develop hydrogen fuel-cell cars have surged in recent months. Toyota, Hyundai, Daimler and Honda announced plans to build vehicles that run on the most abundant element in the universe and emit only water vapor as a byproduct.

"A lot of auto makers believe the fuel-cell vehicle is just a better performing vehicle and just makes more sense," said Kevin See, a senior analyst of electric vehicles at Lux Research in Boston.

A fuel-cell-powered car can travel much longer distances than battery-powered ones before needing to be refueled, and fuel cells can be

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Submitted Nov 26, 2012 By: skb69sa

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rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,459 Points:2,231,875 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Dec 8, 2012 11:07:57 AM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse E-Squirrel - "Large collectors of either wind or solar are optimized by being placed in an area where either the sunshine, or the wind is unusually abundant." Not always. Often the overriding factor is that the area isn't being used for anything else. " Residential situations are rarely in such optimal locations, and rooftop installations are also usually non-optimal for orientation and seasonal azimuth either, or obstruction for wind turbines." But there are so many possibilities, and they're right where the power is needed. "Residential installations may make you feel good about conserving, and prepare you for unforeseen future difficulties however. Nowadays, that can't be discounted." That, plus they're much less inviting targets than huge centralized facilities. [Edited by: rjhenn at 12/8/2012 1:10:25 PM EST]
E-Squirrel Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,015 Points:820,970 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Dec 7, 2012 6:26:14 PM Ignore E-Squirrel Report Abuse Not really. Large collectors of either wind or solar are optimized by being placed in an area where either the sunshine, or the wind is unusually abundant. Residential situations are rarely in such optimal locations, and rooftop installations are also usually non-optimal for orientation and seasonal azimuth either, or obstruction for wind turbines. I don't think that you can find real, counter examples. Residential installations may make you feel good about conserving, and prepare you for unforeseen future difficulties however. Nowadays, that can't be discounted.
rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,459 Points:2,231,875 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Dec 7, 2012 12:44:31 AM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse Economy of scale is largely wasted in large, centralized solar and wind projects. The equipment costs more, largely because of the size of the units required, which increases the need for strength. Maintenance is also a major cost (what does it take to replace a wind turbine blade that's 60 meters across and attached 80 meters above the ground?). And you get a large area with decentralized projects by putting units on many roofs, rather than trying to find an area that you can dedicate to solar energy collection, which will likely not be near where the energy is needed, thus adding distribution costs to everything else.
E-Squirrel Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,015 Points:820,970 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Dec 4, 2012 6:47:33 PM Ignore E-Squirrel Report Abuse Certainly smaller installations cost less, but the advantage of larger projects is economy of scale. Smaller installations of wind and solar voltaic projects, such as individual homes may be "cheaper", but not necessarily less per actual watt-hour delivered. Wind power is relatively mature; I wouldn't expect many significant improvements in that area. Solar voltaic cells, on the other hand probably do have some significant technology gains ahead of them. Irrespective of the technology, all solar voltaic projects fight the same problem, which is that the sunlight energy is relatively diffuse, and you need a large area to capture significant amounts. This tends to favor larger projects covering acres, rather than just the roof of an individual dwelling.
rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,459 Points:2,231,875 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Dec 3, 2012 11:57:04 PM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse E-Squirrel - "Yes, it is. Because the wind and sun are "free", its the significant capital costs which results in the very high prices of the electricity produced. As I already explained, oil, coal and natural gas are popular because, the cost of electricity generated is significantly cheaper." Exactly why I believe the emphasis should be on much smaller wind and solar installations, small enough to power individual homes and office buildings, with excess power being fed into the grid. The capital costs would be much lower per KWH. "Solar and wind cannot compete with these on the basis of cost, which is why they provide only a small fraction of the electricity generated." More because they're really not well suited to large centralized projects. Both require excessive amounts of space, which is only really practical in remote ares, or where they can share that space with other facilities, such as buildings.
E-Squirrel Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,015 Points:820,970 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Dec 3, 2012 6:34:00 PM Ignore E-Squirrel Report Abuse rjhenn repeats: "That's the initial cost." Yes, it is. Because the wind and sun are "free", its the significant capital costs which results in the very high prices of the electricity produced. As I already explained, oil, coal and natural gas are popular because, the cost of electricity generated is significantly cheaper. Solar and wind cannot compete with these on the basis of cost, which is why they provide only a small fraction of the electricity generated.
honda0105 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:18,643 Points:1,611,470 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Dec 1, 2012 6:19:00 AM Ignore honda0105 Report Abuse rjhenn, thanks for responding :)
rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,459 Points:2,231,875 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Dec 1, 2012 1:52:13 AM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse E-Squirrel - "The equipment "cost" for solar and wind is higher per actual watt generated than other techologies. That is why the electricity cost is higher. The reason that oil and coal are common for electric generation, is their cost." That's the initial cost. When you amortize that over the life of the equipment (assuming proper equipment) the total cost may be lower, because the 'fuel' is free. Of course, that depends on a whole host of other variables. One of those seems to be the size of a project. Unlike many other projects, it doesn't seem like there's much economy of scale in either wind or solar power production. And, of course, if you don't want to kill a lot of people with the exhaust from oil or coal fired plants, the cost rises.
E-Squirrel Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,015 Points:820,970 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Nov 30, 2012 7:01:57 PM Ignore E-Squirrel Report Abuse Honda0105, rjhenn, The equipment "cost" for solar and wind is higher per actual watt generated than other techologies. That is why the electricity cost is higher. The reason that oil and coal are common for electric generation, is their cost.
honda0105 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:18,643 Points:1,611,470 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Nov 30, 2012 3:55:13 AM Ignore honda0105 Report Abuse rjhenn, I agree, the equipment is the only cost for solar.
rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,459 Points:2,231,875 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Nov 29, 2012 12:54:48 AM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse The main problem with solar and wind generation of electricity isn't the cost, but how to store it for future use. Freestanding units that combine solar and wind with hydrogen storage would solve that. And the only cost to solar and wind electricity is the initial investment in hardware and upkeep on that hardware. The power source is free.
honda0105 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:18,643 Points:1,611,470 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Nov 28, 2012 10:04:18 PM Ignore honda0105 Report Abuse Haven't seen that many H2-cell vehicles. Seen definitely more EVs so far.
E-Squirrel Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,015 Points:820,970 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Nov 28, 2012 8:03:56 PM Ignore E-Squirrel Report Abuse rjhenn suggests: "Of course, we could produce freestanding units that would use solar and wind energy to generate electricity, which would be stored as hydrogen." Well, as long as YOU invest the capital yourself. Not only have you chosen the most expensive way to produce hydrogen, you have saddled the final coast with the most expensive electricity that we know how to generate. Don't we already pay enough for fuel now? You want to multiply it?
rjhenn Champion Author Des Moines Posts:22,459 Points:2,231,875 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Nov 28, 2012 6:01:58 PM Ignore rjhenn Report Abuse E-Squirrel - "Well, very, very little electricity will be used to produce hydrogen; its just too expensive. Most hydrogen will be produced from natural gas instead." Of course, we could produce freestanding units that would use solar and wind energy to generate electricity, which would be stored as hydrogen.
bston Champion Author Oklahoma City Posts:1,830 Points:644,225 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Nov 27, 2012 11:26:15 PM Ignore bston Report Abuse Very interesting.
E-Squirrel Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,015 Points:820,970 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Nov 27, 2012 2:07:37 PM Ignore E-Squirrel Report Abuse OilOnTheCheap asks: "Where is all of the electricity going to come from to make all of that hydrogen to run everyone's cars?" Well, very, very little electricity will be used to produce hydrogen; its just too expensive. Most hydrogen will be produced from natural gas instead. Of course, this just leads you back to the question, why don't we just make more CNG cars for a fraction of the price? The distribution infrastructure for CNG would appear not to be any more expensive, and the vehicles are practical now.
rrs517 All-Star Author Colorado Posts:938 Points:346,655 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Nov 27, 2012 12:24:24 PM Ignore rrs517 Report Abuse A good energy solution once it becomes economically viable - and we're getting close.
remay Champion Author Houston Posts:6,978 Points:2,119,565 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Nov 27, 2012 4:26:51 AM Ignore remay Report Abuse "Hyundai has announced that it will offer a fuel-cell version of its ix35 sport utility vehicle (known as the Tucson in the U.S.) on lease by the end of this year. It plans to make up to 1,000 fuel-cell cars by 2015 and thereafter 10,000 fuel-cell cars per year." Ok, but... what about infrastructure???
tomok Champion Author Portland Posts:33,073 Points:2,347,460 Joined:Aug 2006	Message Posted: Nov 27, 2012 3:42:52 AM Ignore tomok Report Abuse Hydrogen fuel-cell cars look to overtake electric autos but how much for the hydrogen gas refill? IF hydrogen can be cheaply produced from water, then so be it - otherwise hydrogen is very expensive to make. Produce vehicles that can use many different fuels and fill up with the least expensive one. Produce plug-in 'multiple fueled' vehicles and use the battery until the fuel cell needs to kick in and charge the battery. Whatever the size or shape of the vehicle, vehicle manufactures Produce and the population ‘Drives’ vehicles with high MPG, are very safe, reliable, have a ‘reasonable’ cost and a good ‘value’ for the money. The price of fuel at the pump is too high! XII/XXII/MMXII!
GasFreeLeaf Champion Author Orange County Posts:1,250 Points:476,610 Joined:Oct 2010	Message Posted: Nov 27, 2012 2:51:17 AM Ignore GasFreeLeaf Report Abuse For decades companies have been in on the government grant hydrogen merry-go-round and still don't have an economically viable product. Where is a hydrogen fuel station when you need it? The few in the Los Angeles area cost the U. S. tax payers over a million dollars each to power the fleet of research vehicles. Some test cars have caught fire the few refill stations still accrue down time and need high maintenance. The hydrogen commonly is produced from natural gas and using electricity which seems like a waste of clean energy to get hydrogen.
Z51Corvette Champion Author Austin Posts:8,500 Points:1,674,095 Joined:Jan 2008	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:56:12 PM Ignore Z51Corvette Report Abuse The advantages are there... but the disadvantages may offset them... COST... is the bottom line factor. Before you walk the plank... you should determine the cost of the vehicle over the life of its existence... including fuel costs, maintenance costs, etc..... then we might have a better idea!
MAC48 Champion Author Dallas Posts:1,551 Points:768,670 Joined:Dec 2006	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:44:00 PM Ignore MAC48 Report Abuse One can see that a hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicle does solve one of the electric vehicle concept’s most glaring short coming which is range per “fill-up”. It is also very plausible that hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles will create a larger niche market in the national vehicle fleet. However, there is no way that a vehicle that costs 2.5 times its internal combustion engine sibling is ever going to grab much more than the mere pittance of the market that EVs now have.
OilOnTheCheap Champion Author Ventura Posts:2,116 Points:452,335 Joined:Jan 2012	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:32:28 PM Ignore OilOnTheCheap Report Abuse Where is all of the electricity going to come from to make all of that hydrogen to run everyone's cars?
mrselfdestruct Champion Author Arkansas Posts:1,009 Points:169,550 Joined:Aug 2011	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:24:04 PM Ignore mrselfdestruct Report Abuse As long as I can remember driving has never been too "safe".
firefly09 Champion Author San Diego Posts:2,502 Points:717,675 Joined:Mar 2009	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:21:34 PM Ignore firefly09 Report Abuse Will they be safe? How long will they last???
Mowerman08 Champion Author Milwaukee Posts:4,770 Points:1,219,945 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:05:48 PM Ignore Mowerman08 Report Abuse Any thing but batteries.
Buddy2264 Champion Author Tampa Posts:11,669 Points:2,362,895 Joined:Oct 2005	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:04:29 PM Ignore Buddy2264 Report Abuse Either hydrogen or CNG, but can they make them safe?
N5EXY Champion Author Austin Posts:5,502 Points:1,512,030 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:03:58 PM Ignore N5EXY Report Abuse The hydrogen producing process uses electricity so the fuel-cell car is an electric auto with an extra step.
arb0526 Champion Author Greensboro Posts:1,991 Points:412,795 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:03:38 PM Ignore arb0526 Report Abuse ok
dabuzman Champion Author Seattle Posts:4,467 Points:1,813,910 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:03:21 PM Ignore dabuzman Report Abuse About time they got smart. Make a retro kit to work on today's car ans they would have second winner>
blazerbob91 Champion Author Milwaukee Posts:6,155 Points:1,885,620 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:01:09 PM Ignore blazerbob91 Report Abuse Sooner or later we will see Fuel cells
tidalwave3 Champion Author Tallahassee Posts:1,308 Points:1,466,180 Joined:Jun 2008	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 10:00:13 PM Ignore tidalwave3 Report Abuse This is the wisest solution: Hydrogen is the source of power where something else generates electricity to be stored (inefficiently, may I add) in some form to then power motors (not an engine). A lot of inefficiencies in electric cars :(
stueyAZ Sophomore Author Phoenix Posts:214 Points:23,870 Joined:Nov 2011	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:59:36 PM Ignore stueyAZ Report Abuse lol
HumbleHarv Rookie Author Los Angeles Posts:78 Points:1,006,185 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:59:16 PM Ignore HumbleHarv Report Abuse I just read all four pages of comments and there were some very good ones - but - I have been driving the Mercedes-Benz B220 F-Cell - hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicle. I am enjoying it and it is only available by lease - no sales at this time. True, the fueling infrastructure needs to be created and the cost of the fuel cells needs to decline, but the benefits will still be the same. We will never run out of hydrogen and you don't need to drill a well to get it. Many other fuels look to be cost effective and readily available - like natural gas, but only hydrogen can provide a long driving range with no carbon emissions. I am trying to do what I can to ward off man-made global warming.
dollarwatcher Champion Author Wisconsin Posts:7,955 Points:1,537,170 Joined:Mar 2007	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:57:17 PM Ignore dollarwatcher Report Abuse I'll stick with 92 octane premium.
69Bonne Champion Author Gary Posts:1,165 Points:476,075 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:56:30 PM Ignore 69Bonne Report Abuse CNG will probably be here before feasible hydrogen systems can be developed.
Fitwit Champion Author Stockton Posts:6,409 Points:1,357,820 Joined:May 2009	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:52:40 PM Ignore Fitwit Report Abuse So when a topic is no longer available like the following one, why don't you substitute it with an article that is available?
us4usa Champion Author Missouri Posts:6,003 Points:1,115,215 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:52:37 PM Ignore us4usa Report Abuse CNG is the next step...
papou Champion Author Tampa Posts:10,894 Points:1,908,285 Joined:Jul 2005	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:51:16 PM Ignore papou Report Abuse They sell hydrogen added additions even at the flea market
Fitwit Champion Author Stockton Posts:6,409 Points:1,357,820 Joined:May 2009	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:51:01 PM Ignore Fitwit Report Abuse Isn't Hydrogen what the Blimp was filled with?
bvrbill Champion Author Eugene Posts:3,238 Points:520,800 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:46:55 PM Ignore bvrbill Report Abuse Interesting technology. The cost needs to come down.
vrossi46 Champion Author San Jose Posts:2,682 Points:806,870 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:45:03 PM Ignore vrossi46 Report Abuse "Hydrogen fuel-cell cars look to overtake electric autos" wouldn't take much
melvindale Champion Author Michigan Posts:1,438 Points:351,230 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:43:45 PM Ignore melvindale Report Abuse But what is the price if Hydrogen fueling capability is added to an existing gasoline station? It can't be that much, as the average new gas station costs just over one million dollars to build. See example: http://www.reedconstructiondata.com/building-types/service-station/all/ So new gas station $1M vs. New Hydrogen Station $1M. Where is the extra cost? Where is the large price? Seems same/same. So, most stations would add the H2 to Gasoline dispensers, or give them their own dispensers. Whatever.
mstearno Champion Author Dayton Posts:8,080 Points:1,734,140 Joined:Jan 2008	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:40:12 PM Ignore mstearno Report Abuse gm stunk on this too
mstearno Champion Author Dayton Posts:8,080 Points:1,734,140 Joined:Jan 2008	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:39:39 PM Ignore mstearno Report Abuse hard to believe taxpayers were stuck on this
sweething545 Rookie Author Baton Rouge Posts:24 Points:33,445 Joined:Apr 2012	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:38:30 PM Ignore sweething545 Report Abuse Yep???????
vibdata Champion Author Massachusetts Posts:4,090 Points:849,300 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:38:06 PM Ignore vibdata Report Abuse Too exotic. Electricity's bad enough. Who's got hydrogen cells for fill-ups?
southrob Champion Author Tucson Posts:3,610 Points:690,125 Joined:Mar 2011	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:37:24 PM Ignore southrob Report Abuse better technology
drz614 Champion Author Harrisburg Posts:2,314 Points:600,545 Joined:Aug 2011	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:35:16 PM Ignore drz614 Report Abuse ok
MopedTime All-Star Author Michigan Posts:769 Points:362,035 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Nov 26, 2012 9:35:09 PM Ignore MopedTime Report Abuse Paradigm shift!